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Maverick22 
Moderator Group
Brian Winner 2008
Joined: 30 July 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31310 |  Topic: G 20 = Discipline
Posted: 29 November 2010 at 5:10pm |
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Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear bright, until they open their mouths. |
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IveToldYouOnce
Moderator Group
Joined: 05 December 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4485 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 5:17pm |
The hypocrisy of the Tomlinson family astounds me.
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I'm here to help - The Queen sent me. Let's go tickle some frogs. |
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CptDoby
Class I (Fighter Command)
Graham Winner 2009
Joined: 03 March 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 521 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 6:04pm |
It may be hypocrisy but Mr Tomlinson's family like many before and many to come are being used as as cash cow and a as a weapon by the usual suspects to attack the police service.
It never helps when instead of standing up for their staff, there is spineless appeasement from the likes of Stephenson who should grow a pair and stand up for a staff member who has never been charged with any criminal offence.
When did he last face a plainly obstructive man as Mr Tomkinson was in a charged atmosphere???
Cpt D |
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tee5
Garage Sergeant
Joined: 27 October 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 6:13pm |
The way things are going, I can see the TSG / OSU / TAU etc etc being scrapped across the country, with PO duties being done by regular bobbies. |
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oldcopper
Garage Sergeant
Star Trekker !
Joined: 21 May 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1411 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 6:36pm |
Absolutely disgraceful. To humiliate this PC further and cause him and his family even more distress than that which they have already undergone is disgusting. I never Policed a public order situation of the magnitide of the G20 demonstration during more 30 years service but I did Police several football matches and sectarian marches which turned into very nasty riots. During several of these and other lesser, and routine, public order situations I used force of a similar level to that used by the officer in this case to move on those unwilling to disperse with due dispatch or indulging in the `dawdling' game/tactic Tomlinson resorted to. On more than one occasion I gave evidence in trials arising from such incidents and described candidly what I had done and why. Nobody seriously suggested I had used a greater degree of force than necessary. Perhaps it was just fortunate the Grim Reaper did not decide to claim those I pushed at that precise moment. I fail to see how this officer can receive a fair hearing but hope that, by some miracle, he manages to keep his job. If, as I anticipate, he is hung out to dry it will be a signal to every copper in the UK of what to expect for doing his/her duty, and when people criticise Officers for not taking robust action in public order situations (as I hear them doing now in connection with the student riots) it would be appropriate to remind them of what happened to this unfortunate Officer and contemplate on why Officers seem reluctant to engage with the `mob' in the fashion they once did. If the Establishment of this Country, the hierarchy of the Police Service and the Legal System now deem minor levels of force such as that displayed in this particular case to be unlawful in such circumstances then God help us. I suspect certain people are in for a well deserved shock when the Barbarians ascend their ivory towers and disturb their reverie. And perhaps the sooner the better. How many of us can say other than say ``There but for the grace of God go I ?'' |
oldcopper |
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oldcopper
Garage Sergeant
Star Trekker !
Joined: 21 May 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1411 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 6:43pm |
[QUOTE=tee5]The way things are going, I can see the TSG / OSU / TAU etc etc being scrapped across the country, with PO duties being done by regular bobbies. I would not be surprised if officers in such units decided their careers lay in other directions. The entire spineless, dimwitted Establishment of this Country are sleepwalking into something they are going to regret, and it will serve them right. |
oldcopper |
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IveToldYouOnce
Moderator Group
Joined: 05 December 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4485 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 7:35pm |
FFS.
I've pushed people equally as hard to get them to leave an area when words alone weren't effective. Drunk, beligerent people.......
...........and if I do it again I might go through what this officer is going through? If I push the 'wrong' person who happens to be a bump away from internal bleeding and, God Help Me, death?
I could lose my job and pension, be unable to support my family, lose my house?
Who would give any officer a hard time if that officer decided that he wouldn't use any force at all? We all think that we can justify the force we use, but then I guess, so did the officer who is now up for Gross Misconduct.........
TCF. The only positive to come out of it is that when it's truly f***ed, we can put our hands on our hearts and say "Well it wasn't our fault, what did you expect was going to happen?". Of course, what will happen is that some smartarse liberal will just blame us anyway.........
Is it really The Way that the only way to be sure that each of us will never have this at our door, is to just not touch anybody - because just by looking at somebody you can't tell whether they're a nudge away from dying?
Is that really where we are now?
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I'm here to help - The Queen sent me. Let's go tickle some frogs. |
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
Online Status: Online
Posts: 60692 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 7:43pm |
Originally posted by IveToldYouOnce
FFS.
I've pushed people equally as hard to get them to leave an area when words alone weren't effective. Drunk, beligerent people.......
...........and if I do it again I might go through what this officer is going through? If I push the 'wrong' person who happens to be a bump away from internal bleeding and, God Help Me, death?
I could lose my job and pension, be unable to support my family, lose my house?
Who would give any officer a hard time if that officer decided that he wouldn't use any force at all? We all think that we can justify the force we use, but then I guess, so did the officer who is now up for Gross Misconduct.........
TCF. The only positive to come out of it is that when it's truly f***ed, we can put our hands on our hearts and say "Well it wasn't our fault, what did you expect was going to happen?". Of course, what will happen is that some smartarse liberal will just blame us anyway.........
Is it really The Way that the only way to be sure that each of us will never have this at our door, is to just not touch anybody - because just by looking at somebody you can't tell whether they're a nudge away from dying?
Is that really where we are now?
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Not yet but we will be if he is found guilty. |
I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect  |
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IveToldYouOnce
Moderator Group
Joined: 05 December 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4485 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 8:19pm |
Originally posted by Penbwlch
Not yet but we will be if he is found guilty.
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It has often been said that, should an AFO ever be charged with murder, the country would find itself without too many AFOs..........there might be parallels to be made......... |
I'm here to help - The Queen sent me. Let's go tickle some frogs. |
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BIkerider
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 February 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4562 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 8:20pm |
All I can say is I am so glad I am not serving now. I think of my 20+ years as the best working years of my life but to see how it has denigrated into a mealy mouthed excuse of a service, I am glad I am no longer part of it. |
Kingy from Tyneside
Sometimes I sits and thinks. Other times I just sits! |
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Maverick22
Moderator Group
Brian Winner 2008
Joined: 30 July 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 31310 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 8:32pm |
The Tomlinson family have had nothing whatsoever to do with the father/husband for 11 years. He left home because of his drinking habits(and other reasons) and the family made no effort to trace him. Then 11 years later the family are all concerned for his welfare and were rushing around shouting about their poor old Dad being pushed around by the police. All they could really see was the old ''cash cow'' coming down their way. I hope the PC keeps his job, and the Mets gets a Commissioner with some 'balls', I thought Blair was bad enough, but Stephenson takes the biscuit by a mile. |
Light travels faster than sound, thats why some people appear bright, until they open their mouths. |
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
Online Status: Online
Posts: 60692 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 8:36pm |
Originally posted by BIkerider
All I can say is I am so glad I am not serving now. I think of my 20+ years as the best working years of my life but to see how it has denigrated into a mealy mouthed excuse of a service, I am glad I am no longer part of it. |
I would like to associate myself with this comment. It is precisely how I feel. |
I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect |
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newBeatboy
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 11 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 502 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 9:04pm |
Originally posted by Penbwlch
Not yet but we will be if he is found guilty.
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Well unlike you dinosaurs (  ) I'm only just starting, and I can see this having huge ramifications if found guilty. I listened to the Tomlinson's family solicitor in the BBC clip, and he obviously doesn't understand the difference between sufficient evidence to charge and actually being found guilty. But can anyone tell me why Sgt Smelly got prosecuted for assault in the first place as the 'victim' admitted in media interviews that she had struck him despite being warned? I am public order trained and have enjoyed my live ops, including one arrest (football fan). But all this casts a dark shadow over how we can police with (metaphorically) one hand tied behind out backs. Who knows who has what condition, what is being videod, and how long after the fact (and various investigations, post-mortems, reports etc) we may still be on 'light duties' awaiting a result? I note that the Met promised a quick enquiry back in July. Well they have all the evidence (it's on Youtube guys!), HMIC, IPCC and CPS have also conducted their investigations, so what's the delay on the result? |
So all you really got to do
is just-a move you little feet
And just-a rock-a to the beat |
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BIkerider
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 February 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4562 | Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:48pm |
So they have demanded a public hearing. Well the Chief Constable of North Yorkshire is on a disciplinary hearing shortly, I wonder if his will be 'public'? |
Kingy from Tyneside
Sometimes I sits and thinks. Other times I just sits! |
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tee5
Garage Sergeant
Joined: 27 October 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 | Posted: 30 November 2010 at 12:02am |
I was working the city centre a few weeks ago and one pissed up individual decided he wanted to pick a fight. I politely pushed him back using Home Office approved techniques. He then gets his phone out and dials 999 to complain about me, quoting my collar number. The call gets routed to my control room and they ISSI me, telling me there's a complaint been lodged! FFS- what's it come to when a call handler takes the word of a drunk over a sober copper? |
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newBeatboy
Class I (Fighter Command)
Joined: 11 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 502 | Posted: 30 November 2010 at 12:45am |
Originally posted by tee5
I was working the city centre a few weeks ago and one pissed up individual decided he wanted to pick a fight. I politely pushed him back using Home Office approved techniques. He then gets his phone out and dials 999 to complain about me, quoting my collar number. The call gets routed to my control room and they ISSI me, telling me there's a complaint been lodged! FFS- what's it come to when a call handler takes the word of a drunk over a sober copper? |
I think we just want the bosses to be a bit quicker to come to our defence. Perhaps they are scared of backing a losing horse? In Sgt Smelly's case when the support came it was too little to late. I still think that Meredydd Hughes, the Chief Constable of South Yorks set the best example when he was quick to come to the defence of the copper involved in the supposed ‘police brutality’ film a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure he backed the PC withing a couple of days of the incident airing (it was all months after the event anyway). |
So all you really got to do
is just-a move you little feet
And just-a rock-a to the beat |
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oldcopper
Garage Sergeant
Star Trekker !
Joined: 21 May 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1411 | Posted: 30 November 2010 at 1:30am |
It really takes some believing. We have riots on the streets of the Capital and more demonstrations which are likely to turn violent being promised for the future by trade unions, in addition to students, and yet we have an officer who did no more than push someone and tap him on the leg with a lawfully issued baton being pilloried for doing his job. What example does that set to other Officers involved in public order situations? What encouragement is there for them to discharge their duties properly when they know they may end up on the `wrong' side of criminal, civil or disciplinary proceedings? Are the Establishment of the UK trying to discourage the Police from performing their function of maintaining order? Is there something that I am not seeing in all this? Successive Governments of all political hues have gradually weakened and emasculated (figuratively speaking) the Police Forces of this Country to a level whereby they are becoming ineffective. |
oldcopper |
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Penbwlch
Moderator Group
Joined: 12 August 2005
Online Status: Online
Posts: 60692 | Posted: 30 November 2010 at 7:55am |
Originally posted by tee5
I was working the city centre a few weeks ago and one pissed up individual decided he wanted to pick a fight. I politely pushed him back using Home Office approved techniques. He then gets his phone out and dials 999 to complain about me, quoting my collar number. The call gets routed to my control room and they ISSI me, telling me there's a complaint been lodged! FFS- what's it come to when a call handler takes the word of a drunk over a sober copper? |
Arrest for attempting to obstruct police in the execution of their duty, seize phone as evidence? |
I used to be conceited. Now I'm Perfect |
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BIkerider
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 February 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4562 | Posted: 30 November 2010 at 8:22am |
Certainly arrest, the very minimum for D&D, or more if the offences are there.
I was told early on in my service that if there is going to be a complaint make sure that your evidence is watertight and that the person is reported or arrested for an offence for which the individual can be prosecuted.
There is no need to make up any offence if your conduct was above reproach. Obviously there are times when the complaint comes in out of the blue but a PNB entry should support your story.
The call handler is duty bound to take note of the allegation if a call was made so please don't condemn them.
Edited by BIkerider - 30 November 2010 at 8:24am |
Kingy from Tyneside
Sometimes I sits and thinks. Other times I just sits! |
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M&MBM
Moderator Group
Sheep Rescue and Speed Awards
Joined: 22 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64650 | Posted: 30 November 2010 at 8:48am |
Originally posted by newBeatboy
Originally posted by tee5
I was working the city centre a few weeks ago and one pissed up individual decided he wanted to pick a fight. I politely pushed him back using Home Office approved techniques. He then gets his phone out and dials 999 to complain about me, quoting my collar number. The call gets routed to my control room and they ISSI me, telling me there's a complaint been lodged! FFS- what's it come to when a call handler takes the word of a drunk over a sober copper? |
I think we just want the bosses to be a bit quicker to come to our defence. Perhaps they are scared of backing a losing horse? In Sgt Smelly's case when the support came it was too little to late. I still think that Meredydd Hughes, the Chief Constable of South Yorks set the best example when he was quick to come to the defence of the copper involved in the supposed ‘police brutality’ film a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure he backed the PC withing a couple of days of the incident airing (it was all months after the event anyway). |
Let's remember how tragically that ended. So sad. It seems to me that every copper everywhere is liable to be the victim of a malicious complaint completely out of the blue.It's ridiculous the amount of sh*t a copper has to wade through just to do a fairly ordinary duty. aaaggg, this quotes problem drives me nuts . 
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